[VOTE] LibreOffice Online - repository and translations

Board Discuss
#1

Hello,

last Friday, the board discussed about LibreOffice Online. [1] During the call and in the discussions following, the request for a vote has been expressed, which I am hereby posting to this list.

I start this here as a VOTE thread. For any discussions, please reply in the separate DISCUSS thread, which I will initiate as well.

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for the time being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for the time being

The decision will then also be announced and shared with the various community mailing lists, to keep all the projects in the loop.

Florian

[1] Find the minutes at https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/enpAg8Q93rwP_69yePZQnKFT

#2

1) No. Let's work to implement better tools to make it easier to people
to contribute.

1b) No. TDF's project is LOOL not COOL.

2) No. Translations should be kept live to allow for improvements and
addition.

Paolo

#3

Florian Effenberger wrote:

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for the time
being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to instead
mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we catch pull
requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for the
time being

+1 to all points.

I'm convinced it's the least-worst short-term measure, and leaves the
door open in all directions.

Little clarification - the "freeze .. at TDF's git" refers to the
gerrit repo.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

#4

Hello,

last Friday, the board discussed about LibreOffice Online. [1] During the call and in the discussions following, the request for a vote has been expressed, which I am hereby posting to this list.

I start this here as a VOTE thread. For any discussions, please reply in the separate DISCUSS thread, which I will initiate as well.

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for the time being

-1

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

-1

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for the time being

-1

#5

Hi all,

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for the time being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for the time being

I do *not* agree.

I still maintain the LOOL subproject is key for the future of TDF and its community. IMHO, Desktop will be a niche market in some years; as such, I think we have to "update" our views and probably start to think ahead if we want to survive/shine as a community.

If that is/will be true, freezing (even temporarily) the venues where historically TDF have taken care of contributions (TDF Gerrit in case of code, but more generically, TDF Infrastructure) will send an antithetic message to all contributors with the regards of the perceived importance of the subproject.

When I speak about community, I mean to include the ecosystem partners: as such, if we agree LOOL will be an important part of the future of LibreOffice and its community, ecosystem partners will be involved and will be proactively asked to provide their efforts on LOOL.

Cheers,

#6

Hi,

for me this is a more practical point, not to confuse with an “active” LOOL repo where we do not expect code contributions in the short term period and with that it is unlikely that other contributions (non code) to this repo will come life (which is contra productive).

Nevertheless, if frozen or not, it is far more important, that we all try to engage old/new code contributors to the LOOL project for TDF.

With that I see this as a short term measure to keep track and as soon as we have these new active project it/the content should be used again in this repo tool or the content of it in another appropriate one/repo tool as well for non coding contributions.

So in this understanding for a short term period +1 for 1., 1b. and 2. from me.

Cheers
Lothar

Am 26.11.2020 um 11:02 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

Hello,

last Friday, the board discussed about LibreOffice Online. [1] During the call and in the discussions following, the request for a vote has been expressed, which I am hereby posting to this list.

I start this here as a VOTE thread. For any discussions, please reply in the separate DISCUSS thread, which I will initiate as well.

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

  1. to freeze (not delete) the “online” repository at TDF’s git, for the time being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

  1. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for the time being

The decision will then also be announced and shared with the various community mailing lists, to keep all the projects in the loop.

Florian

[1] Find the minutes at https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/enpAg8Q93rwP_69yePZQnKFT

#7

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git

+1

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror

0

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate

0

#8

Not sure if my previous post was successfully posted or not, here use my own email address to post again. Sorry if you got duplicated posts.

Florian Effenberger <floeff@documentfoundation.org> 於 2020年11月26日 週四 18:03 寫道：

Hello,

last Friday, the board discussed about LibreOffice Online. [1] During
the call and in the discussions following, the request for a vote has
been expressed, which I am hereby posting to this list.

I start this here as a VOTE thread. For any discussions, please reply in
the separate DISCUSS thread, which I will initiate as well.

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

  1. to freeze (not delete) the “online” repository at TDF’s git, for the
    time being

-1, disagree.

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to
instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we
catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

-1, disagree.

  1. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for
    the time being

-1, disagree.

Regards,
Franklin

#9

Please will those voting against the proposal explain their reasoning and the alternative outcome they are supporting?

Thanks

Simon

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 10:03 AM Florian Effenberger <floeff@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Hello,

last Friday, the board discussed about LibreOffice Online. [1] During
the call and in the discussions following, the request for a vote has
been expressed, which I am hereby posting to this list.

I start this here as a VOTE thread. For any discussions, please reply in
the separate DISCUSS thread, which I will initiate as well.

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

  1. to freeze (not delete) the “online” repository at TDF’s git, for the
    time being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to
instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we
catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

  1. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for
    the time being

The decision will then also be announced and shared with the various
community mailing lists, to keep all the projects in the loop.

Florian

[1] Find the minutes at
https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/enpAg8Q93rwP_69yePZQnKFT

–
Florian Effenberger, Executive Director (Geschäftsführer)
Tel: +49 30 5557992-50 | Mail: floeff@documentfoundation.org
The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

–
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#10

Simple answer: freezing the LOOL repository gives a very strong negative message.

No matter what the alternative outcome will be, it will be better than watching the repo become stale, which is also some others’ worries.

Franklin

Simon Phipps 於 2020/11/29 下午7:35 寫道:

Please will those voting against the proposal explain their reasoning and the alternative outcome they are supporting?

Thanks

Simon

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 10:03 AM Florian Effenberger <floeff@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Hello,

last Friday, the board discussed about LibreOffice Online. [1] During
the call and in the discussions following, the request for a vote has
been expressed, which I am hereby posting to this list.

I start this here as a VOTE thread. For any discussions, please reply in
the separate DISCUSS thread, which I will initiate as well.

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

  1. to freeze (not delete) the “online” repository at TDF’s git, for the
    time being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to
instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we
catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

  1. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for
    the time being

The decision will then also be announced and shared with the various
community mailing lists, to keep all the projects in the loop.

Florian

[1] Find the minutes at
https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/enpAg8Q93rwP_69yePZQnKFT

–
Florian Effenberger, Executive Director (Geschäftsführer)
Tel: +49 30 5557992-50 | Mail: floeff@documentfoundation.org
The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

–
To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscribe@documentfoundation.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

–

Simon Phipps

Office: +1 (415) 683-7660 or +44 (238) 098 7027
Signal/Mobile: +44 774 776 2816

#11

From TDF we must recognize the strategic importance of LOOL. That is why the repository must remain active. That way, those who wish to join and make the project shine, can do so. At the same time, as Paolo mentions, we must make sure that the set of tools offered is friendly enough for newcomers. But always maintaining the FLOSS preference.

#12

Hi all

[...]

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for the
time being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to
instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we
catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for
the time being

+1 to the three items on this list.

I hope this leaves the door open to bring back the code at some point.

All the best,
Nicolas

#13

Hello,

last Friday, the board discussed about LibreOffice Online. [1] During
the call and in the discussions following, the request for a vote has
been expressed, which I am hereby posting to this list.

I start this here as a VOTE thread. For any discussions, please reply in
the separate DISCUSS thread, which I will initiate as well.

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

  1. to freeze (not delete) the “online” repository at TDF’s git, for the
    time being

+1

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to
instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we
catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

+1

  1. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for
    the time being

+1

my vote
Andreas

#14

Hi all,

Florian Effenberger wrote:

The vote that has been proposed is the following:

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for the time
being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to instead
mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we catch pull
requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for the
time being

+1 to all points.

I'm convinced it's the least-worst short-term measure, and leaves the
door open in all directions.

Having seen all arguments here, a clear

  + 1

from me. Especially since otherwise I'm very afraid (having some
experience..) that there will be a froze fight for nothing consuming
positive energy from us.

I think it's a wise proposal that Thorsten brought up.

Thanks,
Cor

#15

Hello,

1. to freeze (not delete) the "online" repository at TDF's git, for the time being

1b. to switch the https://github.com/libreoffice/online mirror to instead mirror the Collabora repo, for the time being, and make sure we catch pull requests there, e.g. via the mentoring alias on TDF side

2. to freeze (not delete) the translations for online in Weblate, for the time being

The decision will then also be announced and shared with the various community mailing lists, to keep all the projects in the loop.

The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat holders without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have 1/2 of the Board of Directors members, which gives 4.

A total of 7 Board of Directors members have participated in the vote.

The vote is quorate.

A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 4 votes.

Result of vote: 3 approvals, 3 disapprovals, 1 abstain.
One deputy approves, one deputy disapproves.

As the vote is a tied vote, § 9 IV of the statutes come to effect. The Chairperson has the deciding vote, and voted +1 to the proposal.
Therefore:

Decision: The request has been accepted.
This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.

Florian

#16

I believe the result is suboptimal but at least it provides us with a
new level of urgency to find some alternatives.

Having Collabora stated its position by removing the comments that COOL
is a LibreOffice project we now know that they consider the project as
something completely separate from TDF so we have no duty to promote a
third party project.
We should now remove all references to CODE or COOL as by promoting them
we would promote a commercial entity which is now not contributing
anymore to LOOL.
The way the fork has been made shows that the "leaving the doors open"
comment is once again a strategy to take time to kill the LOOL project
making Collabora, an external commercial entity, the only organisation
managing the project.

LOOL is a "LibreOffice project" which surely lost one of its major
contributor but this shouldn't stop TDF and its community from moving
forward with an On-Line platform.

As I said a few times LOOL and now COOL, being mostly maintained by a
single commercial organisation, are a big risk for TDF and its community
as at any moment in time they could change their focus in a way that can
be detrimental for the community, they could fail commercially and leave
us with unsupported code or they may be taken over by another commercial
organisation which may shut down the project.

TDF should not repeat the same mistakes so it should look for new
partners for the LOOL project and possibly for alternative technologies
but this time having a clear and structured relationship with the
contributors and surely invest to have multiple maintainers of the project.

In the meantime we should communicate to the outside world the fact that
COOL is not LOOL and that we will implement new tools to make it easier
for new contributors to LOOL to work on the code and with the clear
intent, if it wasn't already clear, to make LOOL available for free to
use by anyone and that we will make it as simple as possible to
implement it.

We surely should be leaving the doors open to Collabora if they wish to
propose a new way to cooperate , which should be fair and balanced and
applied in the same way to all members of the ecosystem, but in the
meantime members of TDF's BoD that wish the best for TDF and the
community instead of their personal gains should move forward as fast as
possible to fix the long standing issues that created this situation.

Paolo

#17

Interestingly, https://www.documentfoundation.org/governance/board/
doesn't say who the chair is :slight_smile:

#18

Page has been updated, apologies

#19

Hi Florian,

Result of vote: 3 approvals, 3 disapprovals, 1 abstain.
One deputy approves, one deputy disapproves.

As the vote is a tied vote, § 9 IV of the statutes come to effect. The
Chairperson has the deciding vote, and voted +1 to the proposal.
Therefore:

Decision: The request has been accepted.
This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.

AFAICT this outcome stems from the fact there it was a yes/no type of
vote, so yays “for a short-term period” (quoting Lothar, but there were
other BoD members with that understanding) were counted alongside
enthusiastic yays.

Given the short-term period isn't binding, in practice the vote might be
interpreted as a definitive +1. Could the BoD clarify the short-term
period and maybe even commit to revisit the vote say, before the end of
their term?

Cheers,

#20

Hi Guilhem,

thanks for your differentiated view! And let me stress again at least from my side, this is a temporary freeze, meanwhile to engage for new or old code contributors, so that we are able to have or to maintain at least a “secure” code base for TDFs LOOL.

I already have started some activities for this purpose (as it is also an independent issue from frozen or not) and I urge everybody to help here (board, team, members, community, others) to meet this temporary period, so yes from my side, this is the plan in my pov.

Thanks again, Guilhem, all the best,
Lothar

Am 02.12.2020 um 15:58 schrieb Guilhem Moulin:

Hi Florian,

On Wed, 02 Dec 2020 at 12:23:22 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote:


Result of vote: 3 approvals, 3 disapprovals, 1 abstain.
One deputy approves, one deputy disapproves.

As the vote is a tied vote, § 9 IV of the statutes come to effect. The
Chairperson has the deciding vote, and voted +1 to the proposal.
Therefore:

Decision: The request has been accepted.
This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.


AFAICT this outcome stems from the fact there it was a yes/no type of
vote, so yays “for a short-term period” (quoting Lothar, but there were
other BoD members with that understanding) were counted alongside
enthusiastic yays.

Given the short-term period isn't binding, in practice the vote might be
interpreted as a definitive +1.  Could the BoD clarify the short-term
period and maybe even commit to revisit the vote say, before the end of
their term?

Cheers,

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