Hi,
for those who complains about LibreOffice campains stating free (like
free beer), here is a current example from the official LibreOffice account:
https://twitter.com/libreoffice/status/1286929532222570496/photo/1
Regards,
Andreas
Both "No Registration" and "No Vendor Lock-in" are about libre, not
gratis. "No Forced Payments" could be either gratis, or libre.
Italo Vignoli's _2020/2025 Marketing Communications Plan (with
additional comments)_ Slide 15: "Digital sovereignty issue will become
pervasive". This is something that LibreOffice marketing should
emphasize. The "No ~" image hints at it, but doesn't make it explicit.
Your cloud, your language, your documents, your way.
jonathon
> for those who complains about LibreOffice campains stating free (like
> free beer), here is a current example from the official LibreOffice account:
>
> https://twitter.com/libreoffice/status/1286929532222570496/photo/1Both "No Registration" and "No Vendor Lock-in" are about libre, not
gratis. "No Forced Payments" could be either gratis, or libre.
True - on the other hand if you look at the LibreOffice Twitter
account bio the first word after the URL is 'Free' - it sets the tone.
Not to mention the decade-old (but, to this day, not superceded) example of the Next Decade Manifesto: [1]
"Our Values
WE COMMIT OURSELVES: To eliminate the digital divide in society by giving everyone access to office productivity tools free of charge to enable them to participate as full citizens in the 21st century
WE REJECT: The ownership of office productivity tools by monopoly suppliers which imposes a de-facto tax on global electronic free speech and penalises the economically disadvantaged"
Best regards,
Tuomas
[1] https://www.documentfoundation.org/pdf/tdf_manifesto.pdf
Andreas Mantke kirjoitti 25.7.2020 10:58:
Hi Andreas,
for those who complains about LibreOffice campains stating free (like
free beer), here is a current example from the official LibreOffice account:https://twitter.com/libreoffice/status/1286929532222570496/photo/1
This is actually an image from an older campaign, before we started to
reduce usage of the word "free". The reason I reused the image there was
because there was a flurry of tweets around Microsoft's subscription
models, and people asking about alternatives. So I quickly dug out that
image.
In general, I have cut back on promoting the "free as in beer" messaging
on social media. Still, it can be very useful for some targeted
messaging, such as showing OpenOffice users that there's a much more
up-to-date alternative. I tried doing this without any mention of
"free", but kept getting the same response: "Yeah, but is LibreOffice
free like OpenOffice"?
And, of course, "office software available for use by anyone free of
charge" is part of our statutes.
But I agree that constantly emphasising the "free as in beer" part is
counter-productive to the project as a whole. I spend more time now
engaging in discussions to highlight that the software isn't made for
free, and focusing on LO in terms of the community rather than just the
end-result product.
Mike
I'm still getting a little annoyed by the 'free beer' matter. The whole problem starts with different conceptualizations (contexts) how they term free is used.
Free beer is used in context of the four freedoms in context of software development https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html not to be confused with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms
From the free software paradigm/philosophy as defined on (gnu.org) is open source not equivalent use with being free of charge.
However this not universal conception. Free can be equivalent for gratis in day to day use.
And there even software developers who distribute their program intentionally for free in the sense of being free of charge (without expecting something in return)
Or all the different models where software tends to be free, with a catch somewhere. Firefox search preferences. Add financed software.
Software bundles. Software with nag screens. Software free to use with watermarks.
Another point is what to archive by saying LibreOffice isn't free as in "free beer".
What do you expect from non-commerical user? What should they do?
Even in they context of commercial party's. LibreOffice is free of charge. And the license doesn't prohibit anything What do you expect them?
The core issue is that eco-system partners are spending money on development (code); which they are sharing with the world for free.
They code gets compiled and distributed for free by TDF.
They idea seems to be about everybody contributing their fair share.
And there is quite some theory about that. In the area for governments finances. More specific taxes. You pay taxes to finance "common interest", but show it's a tendency get around those.
They idea behind taxes letting everybody pay their fair share. Ideally voluntary, but show this doesn't work well. So mostly with 'force'. Fines etc.
And people do acknowledge government services, but at the point of paying.. They government is taking away your hard earned money with those taxes.
And if other people dodge taxes big time, they they smaller fish doing they same thing. Of course a governments far bigger compared a software vendor, so you know a bit better how your share is used.
They idea/ideal/vision is that non-commercial and commercial contribute, but spending a part of their license savings on they Office Suite being spend on LibreOffice and/or taking services from company's involved.
They reality is that LibreOffice is used for maximum cost cutting (or something like that) or less pessimistic, aren't aware of those services.
And this whole dilemma isn't unique. Wikipedia is from perspective of the user free. And from perspective of the founders perceived as giving away 'free beer'
They whole service costs a lot of money. It has to come from somewhere. They don't deliver ad's as most sites do (out of principle). Quite noble. However a way of making your living very hard; but they are different at the same time.
And those who donate (minority) might fee they are sponsoring the free riders. So refrain from donating too. Of course not good reason, but ..
"Libre"and "Free" are loaded terms; everybody reads them in they way the see fit (if they context is lacking). Free as reference to Developer ethics (so free to use the code). Free from Vendor Lock-in. Free of charge.
Free source code; free to redistribute; Free from American company's. Free from back-doors. Free of bugs? free of software limitations. free of ads; Free of bundled software. However not free of commercial interest
I think more should be done about communicating the philosophy of LibreOffice (or Open Source in general). Create a story/narrative. Should and little less about the product/ software as such.
Bit more about how it's made and what the principles are. Where does LibreOffice stand for; believe in? LibreOffice is build on the idea of working together (team effort)/ sharing idea's, code, knowledge/ openness.
It's about showing how a program works, about learning to code (or design). To create a better product in collaboration.
It's about contributing. It's about working together all of the world. It's about Personal control, customizability. It's a society/club (German: Verband: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verband_(Recht))
Creating an development eco-system being less capitalistic driven. To improve and involve together, instead dictated functionality by a major firm.
Making Office Suite accessible for everyone at low costs or no costs. But also what it's not. LibreOffice is not a charity or based on (pure) altruism.
Above is only pointers for a philosophy/ ideals which should be communicated. The webpages should also contain some explanation about they multiple ways Free & Libre can be interpreted and how TDF interprets them.
Libre is by some people interpreted as 'gratis'. While at GNU they state "We sometimes call it “libre software,” borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to show we do not mean the software is gratis."
So please communicate this properly. You can't expect people to know what is meant. Everybody interprets it from their context (as long as the text is lacking context).
So free can be interpreted as equivalent for gratis, without those people being 'wrong'. Even that's not the message you want to send. Communicating is not that easy
LibreOffice being free of charge is an result of the philosophy/ideals. It's not something needing extra attention or emphasis. It's merely a fact; at state of being.
It's not they mission of TDF/LibreOffice. Not the point. It's mere an expression of they philosophy. Else - by promoting free - you end up in the area of charity/ altruism. And LibreOffice isn't about that (based on https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html)
So 'for free' 'free of charge' shouldn't key words. LibreOffice is a free product; what does this mean? Read here.. Make bit more of mystery. You want people to read the whole story. Instead clicking download after reading "Free of Charge".
I'm maybe overstating they effect, but it's al least an attempt to 'spread the word'. Or some would say 'educate people'. However has a negative connotation for me. Learning someone a lesson. Or they enlightened people (patricians) versus they plebs. It sounds bit of forcing an idea/vision on to people. You need to persuade/convince people. You maybe still educating them, I know. However sounds nicer.
You need to create a story around LibreOffice; mission, vision, goals. Making interest/vivid to read. Not something like this https://opensource.org/docs/definition.php. Of course you may point to it, and they topic should be addressed in someway.
But make it more attractive. I found they whole map thing: https://youtu.be/a5-7N197T18?t=2008 quite insightful. About where software is developed/ licensed. And no don't dump a link of youtube on they page or link to they slides. But write it out in blog posts.
However that's more a formal/legal description. Like say a Journalist/Marketing; not a lawyer .
Where do you stand for. What do you want to archive. What do you want to convey. As F(L)OSS in general and LibreOffice in specific.
This is part of the business plan/ marketing plan/ marketing communication plan from TDF. The ideals should be compatible with they vision of the eco-system partners
So not something sleepy to read like this: https://ubuntu.com/community/mission. How abstract and dead can you make it. Where is the enthusiasm/ pride.
Really interested how they - at Ubuntu - would define say they mission of say a local football club. If they would write it like this, would you become a member?
It read a bit like technical manual/ specification sheet. A prefer more they Apple product story telling. Vivaldi community/ about communication is already a lot better.
Regards,
Telesto
Hi Telesto,
I'm still getting a little annoyed by the 'free beer' matter.
=)
While at GNU they state "We sometimes call it “libre software,”
borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to
show we do not mean the software is gratis."
Imagine the ensuing terminological confusion if the Libre-Office
project builds a self-defeating over-emphasis on gratis 
So please communicate this properly. You can't expect people to know
what is meant.
I think there has been a long term attempt to encourage marketing that
emphasizes the project and our values, and the goodness of those over
the gratis nature of the software. This is often stated as Project over
Product - though of course there needs to be a balance here.
LibreOffice being free of charge is an result of the philosophy/ideals.
It's not something needing extra attention or emphasis. It's merely a
fact; at state of being
Hopefully we are going in a good direction there - I think people just
being aware, and starting to notice / call-out the more gratuitous
"discover why no-one is paying anything for Office" type stuff when they
see it. I think largely this is a lack of awareness of the impact of the
gratis framing.
You need to create a story around LibreOffice; mission, vision, goals.
Making interest/vivid to read.
...
This is part of the business plan/ marketing plan/ marketing
communication plan from TDF. The ideals should be compatible with they
vision of the eco-system partners
I agree,
Thanks,
Michael.
Op 3-8-2020 om 15:57 schreef Michael Meeks:
Hi Telesto,
On 28/07/2020 21:35, Telesto wrote:
I'm still getting a little annoyed by the 'free beer' matter.
=)
While at GNU they state "We sometimes call it “libre software,”
borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to
show we do not mean the software is gratis."Imagine the ensuing terminological confusion if the Libre-Office
project builds a self-defeating over-emphasis on gratisAbout terminology: 'gratis' is a normal/regular Dutch/German word; used when you get something for free. Surely not with a negative connotation as here presented. And 'gratis' has - in surely in Dutch, but also in German I think - they same issue with possibility of 'strings attached'. A gratis product sample (to convince you to buy). Gratis software (bundled with spyware) Is this some kind of regular expression in English country's? Or who came up with they 'gratis' as alternative for 'free'?
So please communicate this properly. You can't expect people to know
what is meant.I think there has been a long term attempt to encourage marketing that
emphasizes the project and our values, and the goodness of those over
the gratis nature of the software. This is often stated as Project over
Product - though of course there needs to be a balance here.Will post something related to 'Project' 'Product'.
Especially in context of commercial context. As a 'Project' will become/ be seen as a 'Product" in commercial enduser context. Low level (individuals) as High level (Enterprises/Goverments).
For them a Office Suite a tool to realize their objective. They Office Suite only means to an end. They are not interested in (reporting) flaws or project progress. It needs to do what they expect of it, reliably and conformtabily.
And kind of things allowed in a Project perspective (say unpolished - marketed standard - features) are commercial far more problematic. Especially if the competitor delivering a more polished version out of the box.
We end up in an chicken and egg situation. With more revenue features can be more polished, but more polished features you get more customers and can ask a higher price (IMHO). And I personally prefer stuff working out of the box. Or what you see is what you get. Instead of a service contract or a promise it (might) will be better in the future. Of not say service contracts or consultantency, customer modifications can be part of the package. But prefer paying an initial higher price (even if this means double, triple quadrupple of basis fee) for full fletched program compared to servicing contract to solve issues. Solving productivy issues means (end) customer time being wasted (as didn't function as expected) and cause all kinds of (hidden) costs. Servicing contracts L3 are last resort. Customer specific (integration) customizations; that's something which is worth selling. If it are extensions, modifications to core, or if building templates with certain functionality. If they pay, they can get it. And as smaller company you're by far more flexible to adapt and include services big company's dropped as beyond them (why serve small fish in niches, if you have money making big fish)I think LibreOffice has to grow from bottom up. So from Individuals, to SMB, to Enterprise. Of course if you can get a Enterprise/Goverment/University or what ever on board, fine. But with I would also tap into to large market with lesser requirements to functionality (where the acceptance for unpolished stuff bit higher). So easier to meet expectations. And at the same time have far larger market to cather.
I'm tending to a (paid) LTS for individuals too (deliver by eco-partner of TDF subsidairy or whatever legal contruction needed to makes this happen in an exactable way); TDF for free being more 'fresh' (un)stable builds; that's the price for being for free :-). So TDF not advertising a 'stable' build. And the revenue generated should currently be used to get stuff bit more polished. There is lots of low hanging fruits; they small annoyances; details, which a rather inexpensive to solve, but influence to product experience. Kind of a 100 paper cuts.
Not only sold at some creapy store (sorry, dislike Windows Store, Apple Store. Yes, of course get be ignored.. but not my prefered.. and doens't fit to nicely in open source ideology either). I would like to be able to buy at LibreOffice.org itself. Their where some (rundimental) idea's already (including voting for fixes?). Wich blown apart for various reason. However must be revived in one way or another; in my opinion. I don't think the idea itself was the problem. More they participation, communication, method of implementation. However not sure if there was business plan (including marketing plan, marketing communication plan) in that case. Or only some hunch of need of selling in a Store.
About pricing. Sometimes a thing about flexibily pricing for LTS. So people may enter a they amount they are willing to pay. With a default set (nudge). Britain Goverment did have special departement for it, IIRC? And maybe a bottom price, if experience learns people tend to set it to 0. Still like possibity set it to 0; as people are free to do what they which (and make it accessible to even they poor). And if this become abuse, you have they statistic to proof. With they argument we tried hard to even allow using LTS without payment, but.. And you can get out of the discussion of you made me pay X, and now I want problem X, Y, Z fixed asap. As it is their own doing ;-).
LibreOffice being free of charge is an result of the philosophy/ideals.
It's not something needing extra attention or emphasis. It's merely a
fact; at state of beingHopefully we are going in a good direction there - I think people just
being aware, and starting to notice / call-out the more gratuitous
"discover why no-one is paying anything for Office" type stuff when they
see it. I think largely this is a lack of awareness of the impact of the
gratis framing.They framing doesn't help; true. However, bit persimistic about human kind (or culture we live in).
So if it we be enough. Everbody is using Wikipedia, and nearly nobody cares about how it financed. Or even interested in it. And I'm quite often seeing banner asking me to donate; so surely obviously clear they need money.They whole 'open source' model is equivalent for free (of charge). From perspective Linux distro's; desktop enviroments etc. So even if TDF marketing 'gratis' stops, you still have an issue. And that's a message of the open source community as a whole. And the IT writing about open source projects being free of charge.
I can assure you, I never paid much attention about how it has made; not interested/ other priority's. And if I have to pay for software, I'm still looking for a nice bargain. So my support for developers of paid software isn't that great either. Even being happy long term user.
You need to create a story around LibreOffice; mission, vision, goals.
Making interest/vivid to read....
This is part of the business plan/ marketing plan/ marketing
communication plan from TDF. The ideals should be compatible with they
vision of the eco-system partnersI agree,
Thanks,
Michael.