Enable TDF to contribute more code to LibreOffice with in-house developers to address our donors specific needs

Hello,

wrt the subject line and reading through this thread comes in my mind:

"contributors of code" is subset of "contributors of anything" is subset of "community" is subset of TDF to fulfill its written objectives.

So, everyone and everything being an important piece in the mosaic for the big picture for a FLOSS office suite, called LibreOffice.

Perhaps trivial, but it is just as easy to constructively get behind these TDF objectives instead of getting lost in the details, treading water and getting nowhere.

Cheers,
Stephan

+1

Maybe the only thing missing is "users" as subset of community.

I guess that the "contributors of anything" are also "users" of LibreOffice and that any "user" is a potential "contributor of anything" :wink:

Ciao

Paolo

Hi Stephan,

Hello,

wrt the subject line and reading through this thread comes in my mind:

"contributors of code" is subset of "contributors of anything" is subset of "community" is subset of TDF to fulfill its written objectives.

So, everyone and everything being an important piece in the mosaic for the big picture for a FLOSS office suite, called LibreOffice.

Perhaps trivial, but it is just as easy to constructively get behind these TDF objectives instead of getting lost in the details, treading water and getting nowhere.

Really thank you, I was feeling the same and didn't know how to write it, you did it perfectly :slight_smile:

Cheers
Sophie

Hi Stephan,

Stephan Ficht píše v Čt 10. 02. 2022 v 12:30 +0100:

wrt the subject line and reading through this thread comes in my
mind:

"contributors of code" is subset of "contributors of anything" is
subset
of "community" is subset of TDF to fulfill its written objectives.

Thank you! Unfortunately it is not as easy, when you look at that as
"sets".

"contributors of code" is definitely a subset of "contributors of
anything". "Contributors of anything" could be a subset of "community"
(though I argue "contributors of anything" equals to "community" - but
that is an unimportant detail here).

But the "community" is not a subset of "TDF" - there are many
contributors ("community" by the above definition) who are not TDF
trustees.

So from the sets point of view, "TDF" is a subset of "community" too.

[Of course, that is assuming the Membership committee does not allow
non-contributors to became TDF trustees (but I believe that's the case
:slight_smile: ) - because then the "TDF" and "community" would only have an
intersection.]

So, everyone and everything being an important piece in the mosaic
for
the big picture for a FLOSS office suite, called LibreOffice.

Definitely, I agree with you, and I believe listening to others &
seeking for consensus is key.

All the best,
Kendy

Thanks for making it clearer.

I'd like to imagine LibreOffice with myriads of code contributors and no users. Better not.

Fact: users donate.

Currently donation is not tied to any TDF obligation, it is an expression of satisfaction or good will. Donation is a also pain that users go thru in spending time and money to express their satisfaction.

One cent in donation is a manifest of satisfaction on LibreOffice.

It sums to ~1M yearly of users satisfaction.

Other users express their happiness translating, adding linguistic stuff, documenting and building culture in askbot, telegram channels and regional meetings.

I wonder who is actually listening to users.

Olivier

Thanks Olivier!

I'm pleased that you clarified the importance of users so well but I'm also worried about the fact that this clarification was needed in the first place.

Ciao

Paolo

Hi Olivier,

Olivier Hallot wrote:

Other users express their happiness translating, adding linguistic stuff,
documenting and building culture in askbot, telegram channels and regional
meetings.

I would consider those users contributors.

I wonder who is actually listening to users.

I believe many of us do?

It's just that in case of conflicting requirements, I would (almost)
always prioritize contributors' needs over (non-contributing) user
requests. That also creates incentives, for users to become
contributors.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

Hi Olivier,

+1

One cent in donation is a manifest of satisfaction on LibreOffice.

It sums to ~1M yearly of users satisfaction.

Yeah, on the one hand it's satisfaction, and from my POV dealing with donors nearly every day, on the other hand, and in many cases, it's even an incentive, a support, and an expectation to improve what the wide community will provide and share in the future.

Other users express their happiness translating, adding linguistic stuff, documenting and building culture in askbot, telegram channels and regional meetings.

I wonder who is actually listening to users.

IMO, very important to do so.
"Users / not yet users" is the large total from which derives the subsets I mentioned previously.

Cheers,
Stephan

Hi Stephan,

Stephan Ficht píše v Čt 10. 02. 2022 v 14:28 +0100:

Yeah, on the one hand it's satisfaction, and from my POV dealing
with
donors nearly every day, on the other hand, and in many cases, it's
even
an incentive, a support, and an expectation to improve what the wide
community will provide and share in the future.

Thank you very much for that!

Comes to my mind - as you deal with the donors daily, and particularly
ask them why do they want to stop their recurring donations (in case
they do), I wonder if there is an aggregated data available somewhere?

Also, in case it is a concrete problem that stops them donating any
longer, please do you have an opportunity to file bugzilla tickets for
such cases?

All the best,
Kendy

Comes to my mind - as you deal with the donors daily, and particularly
ask them why do they want to stop their recurring donations (in case
they do), I wonder if there is an aggregated data available somewhere?

The majority of recurring donations is stopped immediately after the first donation by the donor, when he gets the receipt and realizes that he has triggered a recurring donation instead of a one off.

Then there is a number of donors who ask to stop the recurring donation. Some of them provide a reason, which in some cases is that he wanted to donate once and not on a recurring basis, in some cases lack of money, and in some other because they don't use the software anymore (no bug or other technical reason provided).

A small number of donors block donations because the software doesn't fit their needs or is too difficult to use (again, without providing any technical reason or a bug).

You should always consider the fact that only a very small number of users is capable of spotting bugs, as for them the software always works as intended. It took me several years to get a marginal understanding of bugs, and I have been working in technology environments since 1982. The majority of users is technically dumb, including people who are supposed to be competent, and this is just a fact.

Also, in case it is a concrete problem that stops them donating any
longer, please do you have an opportunity to file bugzilla tickets for
such cases?

Since 2013, not a single user has related stopping donations with bugs, while some donors have related their donation to solving bugs.

Best regards, Italo

Hi Italo,

Awesome, thank you so much for the summary!

All the best,
Kendy

Italo Vignoli píše v Čt 10. 02. 2022 v 15:27 +0100:

Hello,

wrt the subject line and reading through this thread comes in my mind:

"contributors of code" is subset of "contributors of anything" is subset of "community" is subset of TDF to fulfill its written objectives.

So, everyone and everything being an important piece in the mosaic for the big picture for a FLOSS office suite, called LibreOffice.

Crystal clear, for some of us at least

This reminds me of a comment by MMeeks where he made reference to the fact that those who do not code have no say. Which is a total absurdity.

Hi Italo, Kendy,

@Italo:
thanks for jumping in and your overview to answer Kendy's questions.

Cheers,
Stephan

Hi all,

I'd just like to comment on the exchange below, from my perspective:

Then there is a number of donors who ask to stop the recurring donation. Some of them provide a reason, which in some cases is that he wanted to donate once and not on a recurring basis, in some cases lack of money, and in some other because they don't use the software anymore (no bug or other technical reason provided).

A small number of donors block donations because the software doesn't fit their needs or is too difficult to use (again, without providing any technical reason or a bug).

You should always consider the fact that only a very small number of users is capable of spotting bugs, as for them the software always works as intended. It took me several years to get a marginal understanding of bugs, and I have been working in technology environments since 1982. The majority of users is technically dumb, including people who are supposed to be competent, and this is just a fact.

Also, in case it is a concrete problem that stops them donating any
longer, please do you have an opportunity to file bugzilla tickets for
such cases?

Since 2013, not a single user has related stopping donations with bugs, while some donors have related their donation to solving bugs.

Were I a recurring business donor, I would do this, in the event I wanted to stop donating and a particular bug or bugs were preventing me from using LibreOffice in my business. Mind you, to be honest, even then, I personally wouldn't have much expectation of the situation changing.

One of the reasons I'm not a recurring donor is because I have to ask myself why, as the manager of a small business, I would do that (I do use the "paid" versions from the Apple Store commercial entity though).

Do I feel the need for some kind of ROI ? I would argue that, yes, I do. After all, if I am prepared to pay a subscription to a business such as Microsoft for its online product offering, or take out a Google Workspace subscription, then for the amount I pay out for the small number of users in the business, I would argue that contributing a similar monthly amount to the LibreOffice project entitles me to something other than a free download for my OS of choice.

This is where the rationale of the well-wishing world of an OSS software foundation and its relation to small business users and potential donors hits the rails of reality hard.

Of course, I could give out of the kindness of my heart, and have done in the very distant past - but in business, and especially small business, my outgoings are not ruled by my heart, they are ruled by my bottom line.

I would then argue that if I perceived that any donation I might make might actually go toward fixing one of the bugs that affects me, I could see a stronger business case for repeat donations. Obviously, if a bug I reported 10 years ago is still laying around untouched, I might come to the realisation that no one is ever going to fix it and stop donating as a result.

Currently, I do not see that. It certainly isn't the case with the commercial entity, whose own business criteria and priorities are clearly not the same as mine. Fair enough, as a business we all have to make money, but then an inevitable decision will be taken to stop using the commercial entity's offering, and possibly, even probably, stop using LibreOffice altogether.

I also know we've had the discussion about bug bounties before and gone round and round - without result.

I wish there was some alternative that would appeal to people in a situation like the one I find myself in. Currently, none of the ways of financially contributing are appealing, save as a charitable benefactor with no expectations whatsoever. As an individual person, I might well do that - as a business with other more pressing demands on my pocket, not so much.

I'm not even sure that there is a solution to the above.

Alex

Hi Daniel,

So, everyone and everything being an important piece in the mosaic for the big picture for a FLOSS office suite, called LibreOffice.

Crystal clear, for some of us at least

This reminds me of a comment by MMeeks where he made reference to the fact that those who do not code have no say. Which is a total absurdity.

  That has slipped my memory.

  Perhaps you could share a reference to this comment and its context to substantiate your summary.

  And it's rather unfair asking you this - when I get a blizzard of this sort of misrepresentation left & right from others, but I have come to expect better of you Daniel =)

  Thanks !

    Michael.

Me too, no doubt about it.-

Mine too :wink:

Then I imagine what Daniel thought to remind, is a (irresponsible) simplification of a complex situation.
Black-white: "users only use and developers do everything so they decide." Reality: "there is a huge variety of users and developers and the process of developing is more than (the fine and complex art of) coding."
TDF as community is set up around meritocracy: people that do the work have a saying. And it is up to us to make all work smoothly :slight_smile:

Also: at the moment, there is no mechanism in place run bounties by e.g. bundling of donations of users. Would we have that, then it could be a way to allow donations to steer (a tiny bit of) development. Lacking that, it is the competence of the board to take care for good spending of the donations.

Cheers,

Cor

Hi everyone,

Also: at the moment, there is no mechanism in place run bounties by e.g. bundling of donations of users. Would we have that, then it could be a way to allow donations to steer (a tiny bit of) development.

Let me just add something here from a marketing / social media / Reddit etc. perspective. We see a huge amount of requests for new features and fixes, and our response is usually: "You can get involved and help out" (with a link to whatcanidoforlibreoffice.org), or "Consider funding a certified developer" (with a link to the relevant website page).

A common reply to that is: "Well, I have no technical abilities to help out, and the certified developer page is long and it's not clear how much things cost" etc.

So some kind of bounty system may help to create a more direct link between users (especially donors) and developers. But then Ilmari has written about issues with FOSS bounty platforms before:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2021-January/086741.html

So I don't know what the solution is, but as someone who's monitoring our social media channels, Reddit and other things every day, I see a huge number of feature requests. Many end up on Bugzilla as enhancement requests too, of course.

Mike

I’ve spawned a new thread as this is a different topic.

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 3:01 PM Mike Saunders <mike.saunders@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Hi everyone,

On 15.02.22 15:14, Cor Nouws wrote:

Also: at the moment, there is no mechanism in place run bounties by e.g.
bundling of donations of users. Would we have that, then it could be a
way to allow donations to steer (a tiny bit of) development.

Let me just add something here from a marketing / social media / Reddit
etc. perspective. We see a huge amount of requests for new features and
fixes, and our response is usually: “You can get involved and help out”
(with a link to whatcanidoforlibreoffice.org), or “Consider funding a
certified developer” (with a link to the relevant website page).

A common reply to that is: “Well, I have no technical abilities to help
out, and the certified developer page is long and it’s not clear how
much things cost” etc.

So some kind of bounty system may help to create a more direct link
between users (especially donors) and developers. But then Ilmari has
written about issues with FOSS bounty platforms before:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2021-January/086741.html

So I don’t know what the solution is, but as someone who’s monitoring
our social media channels, Reddit and other things every day, I see a
huge number of feature requests. Many end up on Bugzilla as enhancement
requests too, of course.

Back in the day, one proposal for handling this was to have a seperate tendering programme for community-initiated feature requests, funded with the income from putting LibreOffice in the Mac & Windows App stores.

The features to be implemented would be community-sourced, converted from request to proper proposal by a staff member (possibly also funded from the app revenue), validated by ESC and then voted by users The user voting would require sufficient “karma”, e.g. from answering on user forums or by virtue of being a Trustee, or possibly by donating to the fund. We had hoped to prefer “new” contributors in the tendering process, and also make it agile enough to not require a specialist sales-person to participate.

That’s the undetailed synopsis; I think I have a longer description somewhere in a haunted folder if the new Board is interested.

Cheers

Simon

Hi Mike, *,

...
So some kind of bounty system may help to create a more direct link between users (especially donors) and developers. But then Ilmari has written about issues with FOSS bounty platforms before:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2021-January/086741.html

Indeed, it is not all that easy.

So I don't know what the solution is, but as someone who's monitoring our social media channels, Reddit and other things every day, I see a huge number of feature requests. Many end up on Bugzilla as enhancement requests too, of course.

While working on the TDC plan, one of the elements was a channel to bring users, bounties, BugZilla issues and freelance developers together, also with the idea to grow the pool of LibreOffice developers.

Cheers,
Cor