He has really done a great job, but TDF cannot depend on the goodwill of the members for a product to be implemented. All documentation should be provided to make life a lot easier for everyone.
Hi,
Hi!
I disagree. It’s a myth. Yes, it can be hard, when firewalls, load balancers, 50000 users etc. are involved. It’s the case when one needs professional support. But for the hobbyist, how hard is it to install CODE with a few clicks in Univention, or to follow my “5 minute” guides?
I’m sure you have done a great job for suitably-skilled people wanting a quick evaluation, but the truth is that approach only takes you to the point where the questions start. I have tried to get a LiOn system running at home and have not succeeded in getting anything I can leave running for my family, unlike the Asterisk-based phone system we are using (on a Pi) or the NextCloud appliance we have installed (Pi-based).
If there were binaries for Pi, probably installation would be easy. In fact, I think that Pi support would be a nice community project and would not hurt any commercial interest.
Regards,
Andras
There is already an armht/arm64 LibreOffice, both the one the Raspbian folks distribute and a more up-to-date version in Debian (thanks Rene!).
There is also a work-in-progress Debian package, https://salsa.debian.org/libreoffice-team/libreoffice/libreoffice-online (again thanks to Rene).
But I’m told it’s just too hard to unpick all the Javascript packages to make it Debian-installable.
So, if you can help get that sorted maybe we can have some easy LiOn Pi after all! The ideal would be something that runs from the GUI as a NextCloud plug-in that, given the location and credentials of a freshly installed Pi, would squirt LiOn into it and configure both ends to use it.
Cheers!
Simon
Hi,
This was totally a pain. The lack of any consistent documentation (until
May 5 in the INSTALL file there was just written "Left as an exercise to
the reader") was one of the biggest problems. The only way was to rely
on old blog posts found on the internet.Until recently the consensus was that TDF releases source tarballs for LOOL. So there was no demand to write documentation how to create packages, how to build a "product".
It's not about creating a product but implementing a solution, that's the key.
On the other hand it is fully documented in the source code in README files how to build as a developer, if someone wanted to hack on the code.
The docker/l10n-docker-nightly.sh is also quite self-explanatory. (For those, who don't know what it is: it builds a docker image from source.)
Another totally undocumented topic (obviously I refer to the official
documentation on wiki.documentfoundation.org) was the configuration of a
reverse proxy to work with LOOL, essential since configuring LOOL to use
a non-self signed certificate is even harder.As TDF did not release binaries, I don't know who would look for such documentation in TDF wiki. Collabora published documentation for CODE, e.g.:
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/apache-reverse-proxy/
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/nginx-reverse-proxy/But there are other good sources of information, too, from integrators.
From the community you may want to make implementations that, for example, do not show warnings. If the implementer is willing to deal with that, why not let them?
Another hot topic, for me at least is to provide vendor neutral information.
I even agree with Simon: deploying online is horribly hard. I've been
I disagree. It's a myth. Yes, it can be hard, when firewalls, load balancers, 50000 users etc. are involved. It's the case when one needs professional support. But for the hobbyist, how hard is it to install CODE with a few clicks in Univention, or to follow my "5 minute" guides?
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/quick-tryout-owncloud-docker/
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/quick-tryout-nextcloud-docker/
Vendor neutral point applies here too.
And I am aware that without C'bora/CIB there would probably be no LOOL, but we are TDF.
Hi Daniel,
What makes my worry is the response you got about C'bora under TDF's IRC
It would be good to hear what you think of today's board meeting, and
what has been presented there about community health and ecosystem.
(Well, we tried to chat later, but kitchen duties were calling me 
)
And I take you words "an easy way to deploy LOOL" should be provided by
TDF, as TDF's mission is to offer a free product to the end user. And
that offer should allow a painless implementation.
That is a reasonable possible way of looking at it, for sure.
TDF's mission speaks about "software made available for everyone ..
freely and without restrictions". So indeed you can read that as
'binaries for business use without payment', but just as reasonable as
'code for all individuals without restrictions'. Or maybe even
interpretations in between 
So that's the good thing for primary the board, but if needed the whole
community: our freedom to look at what is really wise to do for TDF's
mission.
Maybe the Ecosystem & Sustainability presentation gives some good input
to further talk about that aspect of how our world looks. So lets do that
greetings,
Cor
Hi Daniel,
What makes my worry is the response you got about C'bora under TDF's IRC
It would be good to hear what you think of today's board meeting, and
what has been presented there about community health and ecosystem.
(Well, we tried to chat later, but kitchen duties were calling me
What I think is no one can get such answer from TDF channel, period.
And I take you words "an easy way to deploy LOOL" should be provided by
TDF, as TDF's mission is to offer a free product to the end user. And
that offer should allow a painless implementation.That is a reasonable possible way of looking at it, for sure.
TDF's mission speaks about "software made available for everyone ..
freely and without restrictions". So indeed you can read that as
'binaries for business use without payment', but just as reasonable as
'code for all individuals without restrictions'. Or maybe even
interpretations in between
No one is talking of the first, and I'm reading it over and over again with different wording.
So that's the good thing for primary the board, but if needed the whole
community: our freedom to look at what is really wise to do for TDF's
mission.
Maybe the Ecosystem & Sustainability presentation gives some good input
to further talk about that aspect of how our world looks. So lets do that
If TDF offer a product for free, and states the commercial suport is up the ecosystem companies what's the problem?
Whoever is looking for such support will knock their doors.
Hi Daniel,
It would be good to hear what you think of today's board meeting, and
what has been presented there about community health and ecosystem.
(Well, we tried to chat later, but kitchen duties were calling meWhat I think is no one can get such answer from TDF channel, period.
I understand what you mean, sure. I have no idea about that conversation
in a whole, so can't judge. But at least it's a fair representation of
the status quo at that moment, from that point of view.
That is a reasonable possible way of looking at it, for sure.
TDF's mission speaks about "software made available for everyone ..
freely and without restrictions". So indeed you can read that as
'binaries for business use without payment', but just as reasonable as
'code for all individuals without restrictions'. Or maybe even
interpretations in betweenNo one is talking of the first, and I'm reading it over and over again
with different wording.
That is what happens: depending on ... whatever, you get a different
reading.
Maybe I got your words wrong. Then sorry for that. But the ideas about
free binaries for all use are there. So it's something we cannot ignore.
So that's the good thing for primary the board, but if needed the whole
community: our freedom to look at what is really wise to do for TDF's
mission.
Maybe the Ecosystem & Sustainability presentation gives some good input
to further talk about that aspect of how our world looks. So lets do
thatIf TDF offer a product for free, and states the commercial suport is up
the ecosystem companies what's the problem?
Whoever is looking for such support will knock their doors.
No one else then we bear responsibility to respect the statues.
"... The foundation furthers a sustainable, independent and
meritocratic community which develops Free / Libre and Open Source
Software based on open standards through international collaboration."
So please let's investigate how it works out in practice
Cheers,
Cor
Ah well, sure, but maybe it's better to wait for the information, write
up, that has been promised by Paolo, Michael, Franklin and Thorsten in
today's meeting.
So let me shut up for now
Cheers,
Cor
Thanks for your feedback and your support Marco.
Thanks also for your support and the edits on the wiki page which is
making it a lot easier for other people to start working on their own
builds:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/BuildingOnline
I see that it is getting constantly improved and if it can be automated
with Ansible then anyone with basic skills can build his/her own LOOL.
I read that unfortunately you received an answer that is surely
unacceptable. Collabora has been one of the major contributors to the
project and they employ quite a few of the developers, it seems like one
of them forgot that he is contributing to an Open Source project on
which the company has/is investing but from which is also benefiting to
pay his wage. I'm sure the answer has been due to a moment of
distraction and that the person in question realised his mistake.
I believe Friday's discussion has been a very important milestone for LOOL.
It has brought together several contributors which are working hard to
complete the documentation needed to make LOOL available also to the
less experienced part of the community and I'm sure that many other will
join in now that several complex items have been clarified and simplified.
As from my summarised proposal lots more needs to be done and thanks to
the feedback coming from you and the rest of the community we are
working now to refine the details of the project.
Let's keep the conversation going as I'd like to see LibreOffice On-Line
becoming the obvious choice for on-line collaboration for both the
community and the enterprise market.
Ciao
Paolo
My initial take,
* Shall enterprises (and even individuals) can deploy their own LOOL to have a cloud based collaborative office suite?
+ Yes
+ No
+ Other (explain)
* Deployment on cloud servers under your control or on-prem should require high-level technical expertise?
+ Yes
+ No
+ Other (explain)
The platform should allow the possibility of adding integrations with other software platform?
+ Yes
+ No
+ Other (explain)
Rather than asking what people think /should/ happen, it's better to ask them about their past behaviour, because that is a more reliable indicator of their needs.
For example (based on questions proposed so far):
- Have you edited documents in a web browser within the last month?
- Which of the following software deployment systems have you used to succesfully install software?
- When was the last time you hired professional help to setup self-hosted software?
This approach is common in US product development research.
Sam.
Thanks for the hints Sam, very good point.
Any other ideas?
Thanks for the input. The draft for a survey is on Nextcloud https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/ZCX4wrx3wipr5mQ
Framing the questionnaire as input for future development we might get a feeling what percentage of users is interested in LOOL. And hopefully some have experienced success or failed and can reply what's needed for a one-click installation.
Cheers,
Heiko
Hi Heiko,
Thanks for the input. The draft for a survey is on Nextcloud
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/ZCX4wrx3wipr5mQ
Thanks. Good start!
One thing we need to consider: as agreed last Friday in the board
meeting, there will be a public discussion on LOOL and ecosystem first,
before we start implementing solutions. And for that discussion, Paolo,
Franklin, Thorsten and Michael are preparing the start document, as
agreed in that meeting too.
Now there is (on a quick look) at least one question in the survey, of
which the answer clearly depends on the information that the submitter
has. "Shall enterprises (and even individuals) can deploy their own
LibreOffice Online to have a cloud based collaborative office suite?"
Framing the questionnaire as input for future development we might
get a feeling what percentage of users is interested in LOOL. And
hopefully some have experienced success or failed and can reply
what's needed for a one-click installation.
So IMO we should wait to make sure the survey is clarified, improved,
extended with the outcome of the discussion.
(I know running surveys is fun and hip, but starting a second one later
is dump and confusing, So let's not do that.
Greetings,
Cor
That's a very good proposal Heiko.
Just some amendments:
1.1
(I guess only a few will answer LibreOffice Online as AFAIK isn't that
easy to build)
Maybe we should also add Collabora Code and Collabora Online?
I have several instances with Collabora Code as at present it's the only
available on platforms like Univention.
Maybe the following sounds better?
2 2 Should enterprises (and even individuals) be able to deploy their
own LibreOffice Online to have a self-hosted/cloud based collaborative
office suite?
4 I think lately Richard Stallman has been involved in controversial
stuff. Maybe it's safer to use Linus Torvalds to avoid comments?
We could also add the following questions to see if individuals would
sponsor the project and business users want/need paid for support services?
6 As individual users would you like to make a donation to TDF
specifically to support the development of LibreOffice Online?
7 As a business user would you prefer to use the paid for versions of
LibreOffice Online delivered and supported by partner organisations?
Ciao
Paolo
Hi all,
One thing we need to consider: as agreed last Friday in the board
meeting, there will be a public discussion on LOOL and ecosystem first,
before we start implementing solutions. And for that discussion, Paolo,
Franklin, Thorsten and Michael are preparing the start document, as
agreed in that meeting too.
...
Greetings,
Cor
Things are changing fast and while we talked about an option of having 4
non marketing experts writing, pretty much, a marketing document a new
option has been proposed to speed up the process and improve the quality
of result.
We are now looking at the option to start presenting the draft of the
plan at next Board meeting, if we can make it on time, so that everybody
can join in to improve it but I'll leave this types of official
announcements to our chairman.
In the meantime I personally welcome all initiatives, like yours Heiko,
that will help in getting more feedback from the community as they will
help us in improving the project.
Ciao
Paolo
Hi Heiko,
Heiko Tietze wrote:
Thanks for the input. The draft for a survey is on Nextcloud
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/ZCX4wrx3wipr5mQ
How would you like to get feedback for that document - direct edits or
comments, or discuss here?
I personally liked Sam's suggestion, perhaps we can tweak more of the
existing questions that way (e.g. on question 2, prefix that with a
question on whether/where the participant got his last VPS / nextcloud
/ wordpress / bare-metal server setup)?
Cheers,
-- Thorsten
Paolo Vecchi wrote:
6 As individual users would you like to make a donation to TDF
specifically to support the development of LibreOffice Online?
We can't do that.
Cheers,
-- Thorsten
Paolo Vecchi wrote:
6 As individual users would you like to make a donation to TDF
specifically to support the development of LibreOffice Online?We can't do that.
Is that a technical issue?
Not even as a selection box in the donation page specifying if they have
a preference to support LibreOffice desktop or Online?
Question 7 doesn't present the same issue?
Cheers,
-- Thorsten
Paolo
I agree with Thorsten.
Not many build their own LibreOffice Online so knowing which platform
they use it would be interesting.
eg.
Are you self hosting your "Cloud" collaborative office suite yourself?
Yes/No
Are you using a local server or remote hosting/VPS/Cloud services?
...
Which platform are you using to access your "Cloud" collaborative office
suite yourself?
- ownCloud
- NextCloud
- ... etc...
Paolo