[steering-discuss] screen-shots Documentation Team

Hi David, all,

David Nelson schrieb:

[snip internal documentation team feud that is best solved on the
documentation ML]

I didn't comment on the legal aspects on Windows and Mac, as Alex pointed
possible problems out.
(And even if the SC would recommend Windows screenshots, each contributor
would have to decide for him/herself if s/he would like to take the legal
responsibility on his/her own).

That is the part of the argument that is loosing me...

1/ I did not see so far any idea that the SC would 'recommend Windows
or something else'. All I saw was claim that using Windows should be
'forbidden' for allege legal reason and a request that the SC endorse
that POV.

2/ "each contributor would have to decide for him/herself if s/he
would like to take the legal responsibility on his/her own"
What legal responsibility ? except the general hand-waving fact of
life that lawyers can imagine that anyone can be sued by anyone for
just about anything... but that is true for any developer that write 2
lines of code or for any artist that create a new icon etc... what is
so special with windows screenshoot ? It seems to me that the
consistency, and modernity arguments developed earlier should be able
to stand on their own (and in my view they do), without involving some
lawyery scare tactics.

(PS: bear in mind that if the copyright holder of a given GUI, like
microsoft, could sue you for incidental infringement in a
documentation screenshoot, then so can any copyright holder having a
stake in any GUI in any screen-shoot you publish - which in itself , I
think, is evidence enough that such interpretation of Copyright Law is
completely impractical and far fetched. Sure some lawyers are likely
to come up with such non-sens complaint... but the different justice
systems, by large, rarely hand-out such a dumb rulings....
And, with all its flaws, Microsoft is very unlikely to waste money
litigating such a case which, no matter the outcome in court, would
result in a PR loss.

Norbert

Hi :slight_smile:
All exactly right except 2 things
1. It was not David doing the pushing. He argues his points but accepts
decisions even if those decisions are not what he wanted ime. There was a very
new person (another Gary?) that only joined the team about a week or 2 ago that
suddenly started trying to push new people in a different direction, just after
Jean went on holiday.

2. I'm not sure what theme has been used for screen-shots for the past few
months. Jaimon has stayed on top of that but he is not subscribed to this
mailing list (i hope).

The Documentation Team asked for guidance from the Design Team a few months ago
but Design were busy with other issues. If Design have now decided what themes
should be used for the website and for documentation it's a bit late for the
Documentation for the first issue. Writer and Calc guides have already been
published. About half the rest are nearly ready to be published. The
Documentation Team might be able to follow the Design Team's recommendation for
the 2nd release of documentation after the first release has been completed but
were hoping to work on other problems. If they switch themes right now then
documentation will be inconsistent with bits of some guides in one theme but
maybe suddenly jumping to something else halfway through a guide. Or the rest
of the guides could just be delayed for a few months as work gets re-done.

If the new person (a Gary?) had joined the team about 8 months ago then his
suggestions would have been very useful as infrastructure had not been
established back then. Nowadays Alfresco gives us a much more elegant CMS than
the new guy's random bits of websites.

Also it was not David that dragged this to the SC. That was my fault. The
Documentation Team had gone very quiet and the new guy was getting a lot of
mis-information, unchallenged, to the new people in the team.

Apols and regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi all,

last week, I promised to summarize the discussion to the SC - that time
I thought that there is a close-to-consensus. Due to the recent talks I
feel unable to provide a "this is the opinion of the community" mail.
Instead, I'll try to focus on the "Windows screenshots" issue.

SC agenda item: "clarification if we can use screenshots taken on
windows in documentation / marketing matzerials"

History:
      * The German community did some investigation during OOo times and
        decided to stick with non-Windows screenshots due the (to their
        opinion) unclear legal situation
      * Sophie (I think) once recommended the same during the work on
        the initial LibO website
      * The documentation team provides a guide [1] how to make
        screenshots (e.g. theme settings, changes of LibreOffice view
        settings). They once developed a theme that resembles WinXP on
        Linux.

The issue gets a bit complicated, because (a list of things I've noticed
so far):
      * people are unsure about the legal situation --> local
        communities affected as well (e.g. specific terms of use)
      * the discussion is spread among different mailing lists with
        different outcome (e.g. German ML, Design ML, SC discuss ML)
      * people discuss the branding of LibreOffice:
              * the impact of showing different operating systems
                (within e.g. one documentation)
              * the impact of having different versions of one operating
                system (screenshots of Windows XP, Windows Vista,
                Windows 7 and to me not "only" Windows)
      * access to non-OSS operating systems is said to be a problem
        (affording a Mac, owning a license of Microsoft Windows; Linux
        seems to be available directly or via Live system or VM)
      * having different screenshot types (operating system, theme)
        being helpful for individuals (e.g. easy for new contributors)
        or a hurdle (e.g. people collaboratively working on
        documentation; re-using content for e.g. documentation and
        website)
      * the different importance of screenshot types (e.g. short term
        for marketing, long term for documentation)
      * nearly everybody (note: my personal impression) stated that
        guidelines for producing screenshots are something good,
        although they should not be enforced in any case

That's the main points I remember ... I hope it reasonably covers the
thoughts (although not their importance) within the community.

My recommendation to the SC:
      * decide whether Microsoft Windows / Mac OS X screenshots can
        generally be used
      * if yes, please guide who might be legally responsible if such
        screenshots are made and published via e.g. the (international)
        website(s), in TDF branded documentation, by individuals (I
        assume these questions will pop up regularly)
      * decide whether the SC can / should guide the community due to
        the numerous discussions on this case; maybe a (non-binding)
        suggestion can be made / worked out

Personal (!) thought: If we want to target Windows / Mac users who might
feel more comfortable to see LibO on their platform, how about providing
specific "Tour" for each of the OSes we support? Like "See LibreOffice
on Windows" ... all other documents (documentation, features pages)
might be made under e.g. Linux (because everyone can have access to it).

Cheers,
Christoph

[1]
"We on the Documentation team use a variety of operating systems and
desktop themes (color schemes), but we want the images in our user
guides to look reasonably consistent. Here are some suggestions for
creating consistency. [...] Use a neutral (primarily grey or similar)
theme with high contrast. Please do *not* use bright or operating-system
specific colours such as blue, purple, or green."
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/5/5e/Producing-LO-userguides.odt

Hi,

don't know if I can make today's SC meeting in time, therefore some
comments via mail ...

Von: Christoph Noack <christoph@dogmatux.com>

History:
      * The German community did some investigation during OOo times and
        decided to stick with non-Windows screenshots due the (to their
        opinion) unclear legal situation

I tried to get some answers at that time with the result that there was
no better answer than we already know (means: there is a risk but
only after taken to court you will know if the risk is real or not.)

      * The documentation team provides a guide [1] how to make
        screenshots (e.g. theme settings, changes of LibreOffice view
        settings). They once developed a theme that resembles WinXP on
        Linux.

I see no good reason to have a SC-vote for something that can and should
be discussed within a team. I'd like to see self-organizing teams and
community wherever possible.

...

My recommendation to the SC:
      * decide whether Microsoft Windows / Mac OS X screenshots can
        generally be used

but be carefull to have this as recommendation. This should be not mis-used
to overrule or prevent any consensus deciosn of a tema.

      * if yes, please guide who might be legally responsible if such
        screenshots are made and published via e.g. the (international)
        website(s), in TDF branded documentation, by individuals (I
        assume these questions will pop up regularly)

IANAL - but this is how I see things.
Each contributor responsible for her contributions. But when speaking
about collaborative work (like full documentaion etc.) The publisher
becomes liable - for all documents that we (TFD) accept as official
we are liable. So if we see real legal problems the TDF BoD *must* be
aware and take a decision.

Note for SC and future BoD - members: If there is an obvious breach of law
and the BoD did not prevent this (or even accepted this with a formal
decision) the BoD members will become personally liable. This is a
restiriction in German law to prevent that BoD can act willfull or gross
negligent with negative effects for the foundation.
Florian is preparing more information on this and will blog soon.

Anyway - I personally se no obvious breach of law here, but we should
keep this in mind.

So my summary for today's decision would be:

- recommendation is to use screenshots taken on FLOSS operating systems. But
this should not prevent a team to take screenshots on Windows or Mac (or
iOS or WbOS or whatever) if this is usefull for the team's purpose.

- The respective teams should be free in their decision what kind of
screenshots are best for their purposes. We encourace consistency among
the work we all produce, but this should not be misunderstood as a strict
rule to never ever do screenshots with differend themes or from other
OS if needed.

regards,

André

Hi,

So the subject of acceptability of screenshots of LibreOffice products
taken on Windows is on today's SC confcall agenda, and I'll be there
to listen/contribute to the discussion.

Hi,

So I'd just like to bring this thread back to its real topic:
platforms used to take screenshots for documentation, website images
and marketing material. I updated the SC confcall agenda item,
proposing this motion for discussion:

"Do we want to see screenshots taken indifferently from Windows, Mac
and *nix used in LibreOffice documentation, website images and
marketing material, to demonstrate our true cross-platform vocation?
Or, do we want to impose preferred use of Linux/Gnome for screenshots
and only accept screenshots from other OS's and GUIs when strictly
necessary for particular cases?"

Hi :slight_smile:
I agree with Italo that the different teams have different requirements to
achieve different results.

Marketing and Website is tactical and dynamic, able to change fairly quickly.
Sometimes being highly responsive, sometimes anticipating, sometimes getting far
ahead of the game. Quick, attractive, flashy. I tend to think of knights and
bishops. Mostly knights. Documentation is a lot more static and less easy to
change. I tend to think of rooks and that castling manoeuvre to keep the king
safe. Very different aims.

People in Documentation tend to aim at being consistent within documentation.
Marketing and the website often needs to show off the variety and diversity but
that would just be confusing and distracting within documentation.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Tom Davies wrote:

I agree with Italo that the different teams have different requirements to
achieve different results.

As a member of the SC, I would personally avoid to have the SC discuss this issue (which, in my opinion, is not an issue). This is something that teams should discuss internally, and I see the SC get into the discussion only if something unreasonable happens.

I will confirm and support this choice during the SC meeting.

Hi Italo,

I would like to agree with you on this point and also with Christoph's
remarks, one email behind here, about the SC making only a suggestion,
_if_ anything at all.

Best wishes,

Drew Jensen

Hi Italo, Drew,

As a member of the SC, I would personally avoid to have the SC discuss this
issue (which, in my opinion, is not an issue). This is something that teams
should discuss internally, and I see the SC get into the discussion only if
something unreasonable happens.

I will confirm and support this choice during the SC meeting.

I noted your change to the agenda item:

"(Italo: I do not like the way this item for discussion has been
worded, according to what has been discussed in the mailing list)"

I was invited to add an agenda item for discussion, and this is the
subject that I'm hoping that the SC will clarify, which arises from
multiple past discussions about Windows screenshots. Given the claimed
legal sensitivity of the issue, and the claimed legal liability
arising from use of Windows screenshots, I feel it is indeed a valid
matter to put before the SC for some official guidance/decisions.

Hi David,

I noted your change to the agenda item:

"(Italo: I do not like the way this item for discussion has been
worded, according to what has been discussed in the mailing list)"

I was invited to add an agenda item for discussion, and this is the
subject that I'm hoping that the SC will clarify, which arises from
multiple past discussions about Windows screenshots. Given the claimed
legal sensitivity of the issue, and the claimed legal liability
arising from use of Windows screenshots, I feel it is indeed a valid
matter to put before the SC for some official guidance/decisions.

I fully agree with Italo here. The discussion here at the list (and even you comment right now) is focused on the legal implications and what the SC would think of it. Your wording for the agenda item is much broader and requests a general decision on the screenshots independent from possible legal implications.

For agenda item 2: a very basic rule for questions to the SC should be that the question should be crystal clear and not be changed half a day before the SC's decision. At the moment I don't even know anymore what the actual question is.

regards,

André

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi André,

I fully agree with Italo here. The discussion here at the list (and even you
comment right now) is focused on the legal implications and what the SC
would think of it. Your wording for the agenda item is much broader and
requests a general decision on the screenshots independent from possible
legal implications.

I've actually worded the issue into the real questions coming to the
fore from past discussions. The motion is clear and could be resolved
easily and unambiguously.

For agenda item 2: a very basic rule for questions to the SC should be that
the question should be crystal clear and not be changed half a day before
the SC's decision. At the moment I don't even know anymore what the actual
question is.

The real question is basically what I've submitted as the motion for
discussion. And it does reflect the two choices that seem to have been
voiced in past ML threads.

I'm perplexed. :wink:

Hi :slight_smile:
I think the question should be

"Can the documentation team continue to be consistent and use themes that it
previously agreed or should it switch to using Windows and therefore make
documentation have randomly different themes and OSes for screen-shots?"

With possible sub-questions to be asked
"If Windows is chosen then can the SC agree to TDF taking full responsibility if
any legal issues crop up as a result?"
"If Windows is chosen then should the nearly completed guides be re-done to use
screen-shots from Windows only?"

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile: